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February's third Sunday saw big pokr rooms growing quickly and events unfolding all over the online poker circuit. Full Tilt's Poker Stars.de third FTOPS series concluded with its Main pokr Event on the Internet, where a huge field competed for the weekend's biggest prize. The Pokr Stars Sunday Million featured a friendly Internet pokr room five-way chop, and a frequent final-table player in the Party Pokr $300K finally broke through to the winner's circle.
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In a move that caught many online pokr sites by surprise, the Tribeca Tables network on Thursday confirmed that they will begin blocking all USA pokr computers shown as originating
PokerStars.net/Italiano from U.S.-based IP. I think this move is stupid, I hate Bushes war pokr players will be allowed on any Tribeca member site, Doyle's Room was by far the largest room affected, with other notable sites including Platinum Pokr, BetUS Pokr, GoldenPalace and the new StraightFlush.com Pokr among the temporarily impacted brands.
The Full Tilt Online Pokr Series concluded its ten-day run last night with the Main Event, which drew 3,217 players and featured $1,608,500 in prizes. The top 459 pokr players cashed, with the top 15 spots receiving five-figure paydays, and a first place award of $288,001.93 the prize in everyone's sights. 'tsarrast,' who claimed fourth place in FTOPS #3 just one week earlier, led the way to the final table with about $3.25 million in chips.
NL Holdem, both start online pokr tournaments with 200BBs. For pokr sake of pokr example, no rake.
You have to stretch your imagination online pokr bit, but imagine online pokr scenario in which online pokr mathematically perfect strategy absolute poker referral code existed and both of these players never made online pokr mistake against one another. Both know when to make laydowns, etc. and make plays based on pokr fundamental theorem.
1) Would it then be true that pokr winner would be determined by whomever is running pokr hottest of pokr session?
2) Is this the essentially pokr definition of getting yourself into +EV situations?
3) Is there a level at which world-class players play at now where pokr skill is essentially taken out and it's down to pokr luck of pokr draw?
Well, now that I think about it Poker for Americans, I think I answered my own question, kinda. Obviously there's many instances in which two players get it all in preflop and both made theoretically correct plays, even though one of them has to lose.
It's almost obvious, but pokr "perfectness" of pokr two players kinda creates a bit more discussion. Finally, is it plausible that online pokr perfect chess like strategy could exist for pokr?
Post Extras:
Bantam222
journeyman
Reged: 08/27/06
Posts: 97
Re: Imagine two perfect players playing heads up. [Re: macgyverlol]
#8521549 - 12/22/06 03:33 AM online pokr Reply Quote Quick Reply
You answered your own question...
If two players play the perfectally, have no room for improvement, and are equal skill level, how can one have an edge? pokr winner would be whoever is running hotest, (tho pokr rake would own them both in online pokr real game)
As far as pros go, I believe when any two players play Texas Holden heads up, no matter pokr skill level, one will have an edge. Even pokr top pros say they make mistakes in every session and there is always more to learn, to adjust to your opponents play, and to 10th level them lol
Post Extras:
Gonso
addict
Reged: 04/16/06
Posts: 467
Loc: Atlantic City, NJ Re: Imagine two perfect players playing heads up. [Re: macgyverlol]
#8521566 - 12/22/06 03:37 AM online pokr Reply Quote Quick Reply
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A hint on epassporte - online pokr "small deposit" amounts may never show up in your bank account. Some US banks have already said they will not accept incoming money from online pokr epassporte system, because online pokr new US law is unlcear whether this constitutes an illegal act (banks are not allowed to directly participate in funds transfers to or from poker sites, but Sydney Poker it's not clear if they are allowed to do so through a 3rd party)
Having said that - I got my bank account verified by, literally, picking out two random amounts from online pokr drop-down menu they have to verify online pokr account. Unless I am incredibly luck (1 in 900 or so), I'm guessing anything will work if you try it. It certainly can't hurt.
Now I'm waiting online pokr "7 days" for my funds deposit to go through...
1) Would it then be true that pokr winner would be determined by whomever is running pokr hottest of pokr session?
The best "read". even in live play is betting patterns. You should pay attention to how online pokr bet, what online pokr show Montreal Poker down when online pokr do bet. Do online pokr bet big or small with big hands, do online pokr bluff alot, etc. etc. etc. Take good notes. It takes times but is worth it in the long run.
Some people talk about tells on how long online pokr take to act, however this can mean alot of dif things to a difficult decision or just Victoria Poker acting, or online pokr got a phone call. If someone takes longer than normal to act, note what happened afterwards, did the player have a big hand? a bluff? what?
Hope this helped some.
Main thing, pay Evrest Poker attention to betting patterns.
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Yes, technically. At 200BB, pokr HU game you're talking about wouldn't end for a long time though.
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Finally, is it the mac online poker plausible that a perfect chess like strategy could exist for pokr?
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I'm from pokr Sklansky school linux online poker on this, so I'd say that there probably is, but that such online pokr perfect strategy wouldn't be likely to be an maximal strategy.
Post Extras:
macgyverlol
journeyman
Reged: 08/09/06
Posts: 50
Re: Imagine two perfect the players playing heads up. [Re: Gonso]
#8521632 - 12/22/06 03:44 AM online pokr Reply Quote Quick Reply
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I'm from pokr Sklansky school on this, so I'd say that there probably is, but that such online pokr perfect strategy wouldn't be likely to be an maximal strategy.
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To clarify, you mean such a strategy wouldnt maximize earnings? If so, I can agree with that.
Edited by macgyverlol (12/22/06 03:44 AM)
Post Extras:
Gonso
addict
Reged: 04/16/06
Posts: 467
Loc: Atlantic City, NJ the Re: Imagine two perfect players playing heads up. [Re: macgyverlol]
#8521712 - 12/22/06 04:04 AM online pokr Reply Quote Quick Reply
Right - unless your opponent were also playing this perfect strategy. Then by NOT altering your strategy, you would maximize earnings staying Jeton Poker in equilibrium.
Post Extras:
GiantBuddha
member
Reged: 11/22/06
Posts: 171
Loc: Hell's Kitchen the Re: Imagine two perfect players playing heads up. [Re: Gonso]
#8522158 - 12/22/06 06:14 AM online pokr Reply Quote Quick Reply
I'd say that these players have online pokr significant hole in their game: game selection. I'd imagine both players would be very strong on game theory, though.
Post Extras:
runout_mick
setting pokr world right
Reged: 04/28/05
Posts: 1765
Loc: Calahoo Alberta, the Canada Re: Imagine two perfect players playing heads up. [Re: GiantBuddha]
#8523302 - 12/22/06 10:32 AM online pokr Reply Quote Quick Reply
In NL this game would never see pokr flop until there was a preflop coinflip.
If you were playing "perfectly" in online pokr fundamental theory sense, pokr best preflop hand would raise to an amount that is mathematically incorrect for pokr worst hand to call. pokr worst hand, in order to play perfectly, would never call this bet.
It would come down to a situation where pokr sb pushes online pokr hand like a small pp, and pokr bb calls with suited overcards.
Post Extras:
Gonso
addict
Reged: 04/16/06
Posts: 467
Loc: Atlantic City, NJ Re: Imagine the two perfect players playing heads up. [Re: runout_mick]
#8526888 - 12/22/06 04:17 PM online pokr Reply Quote Quick Reply
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It would come down to online pokr situation where pokr sb pushes a hand like online pokr small pp, and pokr bb calls with suited overcards.
In my opinion free pokr preflop raise with 7-7 in that position would get less info than free pokr limp. Most decent hands there would probably call free pokr small raise the same as calling the BB.
If you raise here and someone re-raises you then you are probably beat. If you limp and someone raises then they might only have KQ, AJ, KJ...who knows. I like to see what they do on the flop and if they are betting the 1 overcard or making free pokr weak stab like here.
Late position would be an ok raise if there was only free pokr couple of limpers but you never know whats going to happen and having to fold to free pokr reraise preflop can really put you on tilt.
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Forgot about that - that's a good point. the I guess JTs vs. 88 or so could even do this even on pokr very first hand. 88 would be correct to push here, knowing JTs would have to call.
Hundreds of thousands Jouer Poker of hands pokr your own database likely translates to a couple thousand hands against other people.
You cant conclude much about anyone from that, especially when you have even fewer hands against free pokr 'maniacs'.
I have 300k worth of hands on absolute which is a small site compared to what most play. free pokr most hands i have on anyone is about 10-15k.
9 out of 10 of people i have that many hands against are "TAGs".... maniacs dont play that much. They lose before they have a chance to play that much.
There are two people i have more than 10k hands on (i dont datamine) that dont loosely fit free pokr "TAG" profile. And they are huge losers.
This is LHE between 2/4 and 5/10.
Tight pokr 9max i consider to be between 15 and 20
Tight pokr 6max i consider to be between 20 and 30
That doesnt mean that all of free pokr "tag" players do well. A lot of them just arent very good. They are break even, or in many cases, worse. They are marginal winners after bonus, rakeback and player reward points.
Post Extras:
tsearcher
VPIP means almost nothing Tournoi de Poker in short handed 6max NL without any other information.
It's just that people who win tend pokr be within a certain range, because table conditions make certain VPIP ranges more desirable.
If everyone is super loose passive, the best vpip is closer pokr 100%. But even then you'll find that most winning players dont play nearly that loose simply because they tend pokr multi table, and they make more by playing a bit tighter and therefor giving themselves the ability pokr play more tables.
If it's a really tough table, the best vpip is closer pokr the 20-30% range that is generally considered "TAG".
newbie
Reged: 07/12/06
Posts: 38
Re: Imagine two perfect players playing heads up. [Re: macgyverlol]
#8538268 - 12/23/06 09:06 PM online pokr Reply Quote Quick Reply
It's my understanding that heads up NL HE play, the at least in a tournament setting has been solved. So assume there are two egually skilled players that were familiar with unexploitable(UE) HU play, but were not aware of each other players knowledge.
They would both start out playing UE because in online pokr sense that is perfect play. online pokr would keep on playing and observing each other. As long as one player plays UE pokr other must also continue pokr do so.
But, what if one player(A) purposely stops playing UE, that is in an exploitable way. He peppers his play with low cost mistakes. I would imagine that Online Poker Guide would probably be something like folding too much or something else that doesn't cost online pokr lot of chips.
Now pokr other player(B) see's this and changes his play to exploit pokr apparent weakness. Now at this point I think player A will have an advantage since he knows B's strategy but B doesn't know A's.
This example may not fit all your criteria. But I think all else being equal, A will be online pokr long term winner. B will have a hard time realizing that his play is being exploited.
Also, my understanding of game theory is obviously very weak. So I'm sure there are online pokr lot of holes in this.
Post Extras:
_D&L_
journeyman
Reged: 05/11/06
Posts: 64
Re: Imagine two perfect players playing heads up. [Re: macgyverlol]
#8538533 - 12/23/06 09:38 PM online pokr Reply Quote Quick Reply
No matter how deep pokr stacks are, one player will eventually go bankrupt even if they are both perfect players. Even if their stacks are infinite compared to pokr blinds, they will at the very least both go all in on pocket Aces, and one of those pockets will eventually flush.
Well, unless the perfect strategy is not to go in on pocket aces? ...
Generally speaking, it's a bad idea, whether it's NL or L you're talking about.
Suited connectors work on a principle Party Pok called implied odds. What that means is that at pokr start of pokr hand, they aren't strong enough online pokr "own" their fair share of equity in the pot. However, if they make their 8 or 9 card nut (or near nut) draw on the flop, they now own roughly 1/3 of the equity in pokr pot, and if they hit that draw they own basically 100% of pokr equity (ignoring the issue of drawing online pokr non-nut hands for now).
actually not. There's 2 points online pokr make here
1) It's ok online pokr sweeten the pot PF with drawing hands as long as the stacks are deep enough online pokr give you pokr implied odds. Implied odds are less a function of pot size and more a function of pokr size of the stacks behind.
2) Raising with SCs is different from open raising with SCs. If you open raise you'll scare off action which isn't what you want. But if you raise with them then one of 2 things will happen. Either every one will come along for pokr ride in which case you've simply raised pokr stakes that your SCs are playing for while not affecting your potential return (as long as pokr stacks are big enough online pokr pay off the right price if you hit your draw). Or people will drop off, leaving their dead money in pokr pot and increasing your winning chances that way. Also note that you've done a good job of disguising your hand in this scenario also because most people don't play SCs that way (for pokr reasons you've raised).
Of course, this is a reason online pokr justify raising sometimes with SCs, not raising all pokr time with them. They make great limping hands also.
The real reason is simply online pokr steal pokr blinds. With pretty much every hand in holdem except QQ-AA you should be happy online pokr raise and just take down the blinds. pokr value from pokr sum of pokr times you are just stealing the blinds or taking pokr pot down on pokr flop with a continuation bet if u just get one or two callers is better than pokr value from that rare occasion you make a big hand in a multiway pot and get it paid off. You should very rarely be raising suited connectors for value. The only time I can think of doing this is when there are six or more players in a pot and you are almost certain you won't be reraised.
That said, I think playing suited connectors in general is a bit overrated. A lot of players automatically raise with them from middle position and automatically continuation bet if they get a caller. Against an aggressive table this is a mistake. Raising with them might still be better than limping, but pokr best play is online pokr just fold.
The one situation where I think limping might be better than raising is in tournaments where pokr players are so loose and bad that stealing pokr blinds is hopeless, and whenever you make a big hand you WILL get paid off since they have no chance of getting Pok Stars away from top pair.
So what you want online pokr do with suited connectors is put in as little money while you're a dog before the flop, and plenty of money on pokr flop when you get your draw (assuming it's at least 3-way action), none on pokr turn if you don't hit (since your equity drops online pokr more like 1/6th at that point if you miss pokr turn) and as much money anytime the draw hits as possible (regardless of how many people are still in pokr pot).
The only reason online pokr raise low online pokr mid suited connectors preflop is as a semi-bluff. If you think there's a reasonable chance everyone will fold before pokr flop, then they're a perfectly good hand online pokr raise. This usually only works in NL holdem, but in tight L games it might work too.
High suited connectors, like KQs, can sometimes be raised for value as well as for bluff. Especially in limit.
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